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The Assignment with Audie Cornish
Each week on The Assignment, host Audie Cornish pulls listeners out of their digital echo chambers to hear from the people whose lives intersect with the news cycle. From the sex work economy to the battle over what’s taught in classrooms, no topic is off the table. Listen to The Assignment every Monday and Thursday.
Clickbait Fashion Is Taking Over Your Feed
The Assignment with Audie Cornish
Apr 20, 2023
Are we cycling through fashion trends faster than ever? Cores, aesthetics, and those big red boots! Our Assignment this week is a deep dive into how the social media algorithm is turning each of us into mini-fashionistas, and whether fashion trends can help us understand the state of the economy. Audie’s guests are trend forecaster Agustina Panzoni and culture critic Terry Nguyen.
Episode Transcript
Audie Cornish
00:00:00
I'm dating myself here, but I still think a lot about that speech that Meryl Streep's character gives in The Devil Wears Prada. It's the blue sweater speech.
Miranda Priestly
00:00:10
What you don't know is that that sweater is not just blue, it's not turquoise. It's not lapis. It's actually cerulean.
Audie Cornish
00:00:17
So Streep plays a thinly-veiled Anna Wintour-type character at a not-so-thinly-veiled Vogue. And Anne Hathaway plays the fish out of water assistant who thinks fashion is unimportant.
Miranda Priestly
00:00:30
So you think this has nothing to do with you? You go to your closet and you select, I don't know, that lumpy blue sweater, for instance, because you're trying to tell the world that you take yourself too seriously to care about what you put on your back.
Audie Cornish
00:00:46
I mean, not wrong. Anyway, the speech continues into a whole thing about how trends are born.
Miranda Priestly
00:00:54
Then I think it was Yves Saint Laurent, wasn't it, who showed cerulean military jackets.
Miranda Priestly
00:00:59
I think we need a jacket here.
Miranda Priestly
00:01:01
And then cerulean quickly showed up in the collections of eight different designers. And then it filtered down through the department stores and then trickled on down into some tragic, casual corner where you no doubt fished it out of some clearance bin. However, that blue represents millions of dollars and countless jobs.
Audie Cornish
00:01:21
But that was almost 20 years ago. And these days we've got nothing but choice.
Lex Nicoleta
00:01:27
Coastal grandmother is the vibe. Coastal grandmother is Martha Stewart adjacent...
Audie Cornish
00:01:32
And the Anna Wintours of the world? They don't have all that much they can do about it.
Chtonic Official
00:01:37
So what is GORPcore? GORP, which stands for good ole raisins and peanuts, is a style focusing on outdoor and utilitarian wear.
Sam Clovers
00:01:45
How to dress mermaid core. The easy part is finding shell, pearl and starfish accessories.
Amanda Limardi
00:01:49
Let's talk about the ballet core starter pack. These are what items you're going to need to add to your wardrobe if you want to partake in this little ballet core trend.
Audie Cornish
00:02:00
You want to start a trend? You're one social media account from the possibility of it being a thing.
Good Day New York
00:02:05
It's been all over Instagram, Tik Tok, Snapchat, you name it. It looks like claymation Christmas and it looks like Mario Brothers. I don't know.
Audie Cornish
00:02:14
So are trends dead? Are we killing them with an avalanche of clickbait fast fashion nonsense, or is Gen Z completely disinterested in being told what they have to buy? And can the current state of fashion help us understand the state of the economy? I'm Audie Cornish. And this is The Assignment.
Audie Cornish
00:02:35
So lest you think my references deeply unfashionable, I brought in an expert.
Agustina Panzoni
00:02:41
So I'm a fashion trend forecaster. Right? And a lot of trend forecasting happen within that runway analysis, like seeing what is starting to pop up in the runway and then seeing a pattern and then saying, okay, this is where things are going.
Audie Cornish
00:02:55
This is Agustina Panzoni, head of trends at a media company called Death to Stock. She's successfully predicted some Gen Z trends on Tik Tok. And we have Terry Nguyen, who wrote an article for Vox called Trends Are Dead.
Terry Nguyen
00:03:09
I am a journalist covering consumerism, culture and tech, and I'm currently writing for Dirt, a web3 media company and daily newsletter on culture and entertainment.
Audie Cornish
00:03:22
So we started talking about that blue sweater speech.
Agustina Panzoni
00:03:26
With the democratization of fashion and the Internet and social media had a big role in that. Consumers are starting more and more to have a voice in what is trending and that voice in the fashion conversation.
Audie Cornish
00:03:42
And that democratization you're referring to is just basically influencers, right? Getting those Tumblrs, blogs, Instagram, being powerful voices in their own right.
Agustina Panzoni
00:03:52
Exactly. Also, I mean, not only influencers at this point, because when you think about Tik Tok, right, you might not have a following at all, but your video might go viral because of how that Tik Tok algorithm works. I think algorithms are playing a big role in fashion discovery right now, and that is allowing people to find things that they like and share it faster than before. So the runways, they're losing relevance. And when you think about the last fashion month, the way that they're really turning to gimmicks, you know, to capture that attention, you're seeing clothes burning down the runway. You're seeing robots in the runway. The focus is becoming more about the viral moment than the pieces themselves.
Terry Nguyen
00:04:42
Yeah. In addition to the runways no longer holding as much sway, you also have to think about how clothes are being produced and the pace of that production and how so many fast fashion companies look to the algorithm as a site for where new trends and new kind of styles are emerging. Coupled with that, the casual consumer has so many reference points. They're not only looking at magazines, which is kind of where The Devil Wears Prada quote rings true, but they're looking at an array of kind of influences. They're no longer having, they no longer need to open a magazine. They just can go on any website or any site.
Audie Cornish
00:05:24
So there's many more places to look for your inspiration. So what does that mean for you two?
Agustina Panzoni
00:05:31
So the job of a trend forecaster is becoming increasingly difficult, more so in the fashion world. I just came back from South by Southwest and there's been a lot of conversations about fashion and fashion trends, and I've seen some insights on a lot of the new esthetics that are popularized via social media. And this idea that people are coming up with their own aesthetics online, making fake trend reports about them. Those trend reports go viral. They get press, you know, and then we have these aesthetics that supposedly are the biggest thing right now.
Audie Cornish
00:06:10
So that's helpful. That means when I'm watching Tik Tok and all of a sudden somebody is like, Oh, I'm into, I don't know, sandwich core and I always want to be dressed like a sandwich. And you're like, This seems like a scam to me, but maybe the Youngs are on to something and you're like, trying to justify it because it seems like it's gone viral. You're saying, No, it's definitely BS. Like, I don't have to worry.
Agustina Panzoni
00:06:33
Exactly. Exactly. At that conference, these trend forecaster, his name is Matt Klein. He talked about how we're confusing the way that trends work. It's with speed of how fast a trend gets popularized and the way that it becomes viral amount of people that are like seeing that trend versus the way how a trend usually works, which is slowly, you know, it starts building up. It's it's not just a conversation. It's not just one viral video. It's something that we start embracing in our lifestyles. There's a big disconnect of what's happening online and what's...
Audie Cornish
00:07:10
What's happening on the street in real life or in the clearance bin of the mall. Terry, are trends are dead? Are trends BS? We don't want to put Agustina out of work, but it sounds like trends maybe are being killed by the Internet somehow?
Terry Nguyen
00:07:28
I wrote a piece in May last year for Vox, arguing that I think there is as much trend manufacturing as there are trend reporting as a result of the fragmentation of the algorithm. Like people are getting specific content tailored to their desires, what they're interested in. And so as a result, we no longer have that kind of like top down funnel for magazines telling us what's trending. So in a sense, I would argue that these top down trends I think are dead. Not to invalidate trend forecasting or futurism as an industry, but I think that...
Audie Cornish
00:08:04
Don't worry, she can't fight you. This is a video conference.
Terry Nguyen
00:08:07
But I think that the emergence of what we're calling trends aren't exactly trends or just kind of aesthetics that are being cycled through. And depending on what your, you know, for you page or your feed looks like, you can think that's a trend. But there is, I would argue, less and less of kind of a mainstream effect happening in which everyone is aware that certain jeans are in or a certain cut of a top is in. It's much more distributed and fragmented.
Audie Cornish
00:08:38
Which is why I made up sandwich core. But I think some real ones are Coastal Grandma.
Agustina Panzoni
00:08:44
Mm hmm.
Audie Cornish
00:08:46
Clown core.
Agustina Panzoni
00:08:47
Clown. Oh, my God. Yes. My favorite.
Audie Cornish
00:08:50
I'm sorry. What? Please describe clown core.
Agustina Panzoni
00:08:55
Clown Corps is exactly what it sounds like. So, dressing with clownish inspiration. So, like, big collars. But I actually agree with what Terry is saying in that there is a lot of fake trends being created or... Like more trends that exist online. And I did a recent report on this because fashion trends are not dead. They are still in my opinion, they're still existing, but they're not their aesthetics that we're seeing. Those are not the real trends. The real trend, in my opinion, is the bigger landscape, right? We're here seeing these popularization of trend forecasting, you know, as a point of conversation online, all these people are rising as trend forecasters. They're creating these aesthetics online. And many of these aesthetics only live online. If you think about it, you can't show up to work, dress like a clown. Simply you cannot.
Audie Cornish
00:09:51
I'm so glad you said that, because I was like, Do I need to be into clown core? Like, do I need a nose? How does it work? But yeah, it feels like it would be bad if I tried.
Agustina Panzoni
00:10:00
Right? I mean, I wish we could right. That would be fun, but it's just not. It's. It's they're more aesthetics that are made to have a moment online. They're meant to catch your attention online. And in my recent trend report, I call them more resembling to skins, like video game skins, than fashion trends.
Audie Cornish
00:10:20
I see. So kind of you're online, you're on some social media site. It's recommendations are sending you down whatever fashion rabbit hole. And in a way, you're kind of trying on that like any other identity.
Agustina Panzoni
00:10:32
Exactly. You know, like previously, you know, when you think about subcultures and like how aesthetics related to them, like punks, you know, like they had a whole ideology and reasons why.
Audie Cornish
00:10:42
And politics.
Agustina Panzoni
00:10:43
Exactly. Reasons why they followed a certain set of rules that allowed them to create multiple outfits. When you think about punk core today, on one side, you might dress punk core one day and coastal grandmother the next. And we're seeing that happening amongst consumers and it doesn't really mean anything about what you really think. But also these are aesthetics that are being talked about. They're getting increasingly fragmented to a point where it's just an outfit, you know, like similar to a skin, another esthetic that was popularized on Tik Tok ballet core, right? It's ballerina flats, legwarmers, a silk skirt. And if you want t, instead of keeping it so you know like pinkish and... You'll want to add some like black tights and maybe they have a couple holes? That is not ballet core anymore. That is ballerina sleaze, you know, like it's not it's not an aesthetic in that it has a set of rules that you can play with. They're just like single outfits that you can implement.
Terry Nguyen
00:11:45
I also think that the ease in which you can name something and create like nomenclature for it has given rise to this illusion that there are more trends. Everyone's essentially remixing clothes. And I really love that metaphor of treating your clothes as kind of video game skins. I also think the proliferation of clothing, like how easily accessible it can be to go on Amazon, on Google and search up "ballerina core, ballerina sleaze" and immediately be able to order something online. I think that ease of purchase as well kind of allows for more opportunity for creativity for consumers. Like I think it's a really fun time to be a teenage girl who can wear whatever they want to school.
Audie Cornish
00:12:29
When we come back, clickbait fashion, the economy, and why some weird cartoon looking red boots had a moment online.
Agustina Panzoni
00:12:37
People on Twitter were saying nothing is real. Who cares? Just wear the big red boots, you know?
Audie Cornish
00:12:49
So the big red boots are the reason we wanted to talk about fashion. And if you haven't seen them, they look like something straight out of a video game. Fat, flat and cherry red. Like Super Mario Brothers red. Of course, in the amount of time it took for us to do this episode, the Internet has mostly already moved on. But for a moment, the big red boots were a thing.
Agustina Panzoni
00:13:14
They were absolutely everywhere.
Fox 5 New York
00:13:19
The hottest new fashion trend making waves right now online. Yeah, we're talking about MSCHF's big red boots, which all kinds of celebrities...
Jeanne Moos
00:13:27
Ever since they went on sale for 350 bucks and sold out in minutes. Fashionistas can't shut up about the big red boots.
Agustina Panzoni
00:13:37
They were made by this company called MSCHF. They're an art collective and they're known for making viral items. What I think is interesting is the whole conversation that came out of that viral moment and what that means about us and how we're consuming clothes. I met someone wearing those boots and they told me they could not go down the stairs because they were going to fall. Like they're like very, very hard to wear. They're not really meant to be worn. They're more of an art piece. But we're wearing them for that viral moment where wearing those boots exists online. And that says a lot about us.
Terry Nguyen
00:14:18
I personally am just really shocked people would buy from MSCHF because the name itself suggests they're like a conceptual group and they're making money off of, you know, your desire to wear something that is in the viral outrage cycle. So it – obviously, it makes sense that you can't walk in them. They're not a fashion company. That was not the goal of the product. It was intended to spur this cycle.
Agustina Panzoni
00:14:45
Things are starting to become muddy. People on Twitter were saying, "nothing is real. Who cares? Just wear the big red boots," you know? And even MSCHF, when they were talking about the boots, they were saying that how, you know, they wanted to create "an abstraction that free us from the constraints of reality." And that's why they were opting for cartoonishness.
Audie Cornish
00:15:06
Well, it worked if you can't walk down the stairs.
Agustina Panzoni
00:15:08
Exactly. Exactly. But, but it shows.
Audie Cornish
00:15:11
But I understand what you're saying, because the visual of them, it almost looks like they were painted on to people's feet or something, when you looked at the image.
Agustina Panzoni
00:15:17
I feel like it challenges the idea of functionality. If you're buying clothes to wear online, do they need to be functional? And that's kind of the challenge that that the big red boots brought along. I'm not buying the big red boots, but as an art piece, as a conversation starter of where we're going as consumers, I think it's pretty brilliant. I mean, I don't know, I'm kind of a fan.
Audie Cornish
00:15:37
You know. I want to ask you then about clickbait fashion, because it sounds like this is a concept that is a consequence of the trends you guys are talking about, a consequence of the effect of both – not just the Internet democratization of kind of trends, trend analysis – but also the algorithms of social media companies helping to make things viral. So Terry, start by just defining what is clickbait fashion.
Terry Nguyen
00:16:06
Yeah. Clickbait fashion is this term I borrowed from Harper's Bazaar fashion director Rachel Tashjian. She's a great fashion journalist, but essentially it describes the kinds of clothes that you would wear essentially to show off online. Or these clothes are very flashy online. They look a certain way. They're kind of gimmicky, as Agustina mentioned, or they're they're just not really well-made, too.
Audie Cornish
00:16:33
Right. So they're just good enough for your Instagram photo.
Terry Nguyen
00:16:36
They're flat.
Audie Cornish
00:16:38
Yeah.
Terry Nguyen
00:16:37
I think a good way to think about it is they, they, they operate better in two dimensional settings on a screen versus in a three dimensional setting, when you're seeing them worn by a person walking by you on the street.
Audie Cornish
00:16:49
Yeah. What's driving it? Who's perpetrating it? Is it regulars? Is it the fashion world? Who's jumping on that train?
Terry Nguyen
00:16:56
I really think it's both. But I think Agustina mentioned earlier that fashion companies, you know, houses feel like they're no longer as relevant on the runway or hold the same sway over magazines. And so they kind of need something to grasp consumers' attentions. And so they're kind of increasingly turning to more conceptual gimmicks. I think it's really interesting to see houses create clothes that just look like they're intended to be seen on a screen. They're not really wearable. They don't really make sense for you to go out on a night on the town. In fact, some of these clothes, the high fashion clothes, might be really, really uncomfortable to wear. I think something that I thought of is kind of clickbait fashion-y, but also kind of trendy is the Miu Miu miniskirt. And it's so – it's almost like a tiny piece of fabric.
Audie Cornish
00:17:47
Right. But all the write ups about it are like, "guess what, everyone, the early aughts mini skirt is back."
Terry Nguyen
00:17:55
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:17:56
And then you see it. Yeah. Like, ooh.
Terry Nguyen
00:17:59
It's very un wearable. Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:18:01
Very deeply. Deeply. I mean it is wearable by some people.
Agustina Panzoni
00:18:05
These are like micro micro mini skirts, you know, like –
Audie Cornish
00:18:08
Just barely like there's a leaf.
Agustina Panzoni
00:18:10
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:18:10
And then there's the Miu Miu mini skirt.
Agustina Panzoni
00:18:12
Exactly. Exactly.
Audie Cornish
00:18:18
Is there anything to take away from, again, pandemic legacy as well, or this economic moment as well that you think is contributing to some of the fashion trends, micro trends, clickbait that we're seeing?
Terry Nguyen
00:18:36
I feel like it's more reflected in sort of the prices that we've reached over the past decade with clothes. If you look at the Consumer Price Index, increasingly for the past two decades, clothes have kind of bottomed out, which is really shocking. If you go on any fast fashion site, you can get anything for, you know, $2, $3. And it's fascinating because I think people can keep purchasing as a result of that.
Audie Cornish
00:19:02
There are different levels to fashion, right? You can buy a white T-shirt and one can cost $7.99 and one can cost $179.99. And as inflation affects us in different ways. Right? Some people are suffering in this economy more than others. What is happening on that kind of wealthy end, like, how do you show or signal your wealth in an era when clothing costs so little?
Terry Nguyen
00:19:33
Clothes that are well designed and look good in real life, essentially. It's really interesting how the wealthy always want to kind of separate themselves aesthetically from the masses. And historically, they've been able to do that by having access to the top designers' works immediately. And I think during that era when more designers were pandering towards Instagram audiences, that was kind of like a mind shift for them. But I think we are now seeing, you know, more tactile clothing, clothes that look and feel good and use high end fabrics that can't really be replicated, you know, by SHEIN or like by Zara.
Agustina Panzoni
00:20:11
I agree with that. I mean, the prices of higher end fashion products are actually going up for many houses, right? Like there was many headlines talking about about how different designers are increasing the prices of bags. So there is a divide. There is kind of a different reality that people are living in the in the higher end. And what I'm seeing is that where the higher end houses are pushing for more minimalistic designs and the esthetics of, you know, austerity and maybe not something as flashy. On the other hand, when it comes to like the mass market, we're seeing the aesthetics of chaos, right?
Audie Cornish
00:20:51
The aesthetics of chaos. Oh, my goodness. That's so great.
Agustina Panzoni
00:20:54
Yeah, it's scary to let go of what you have because you don't know if you can buy it again. You know, when the economy goes better, you can afford to throw things. So these aesthetics of chaos are being marketed to the more mass market consumer. And that's why we're seeing a lot of imagery in fashion having that chaotic look like we're seeing messy rooms, you know, in editorials.
Audie Cornish
00:21:17
So broke people are having the aesthetics of chaos and then all the wealthy people are – what – going to minimalism?
Agustina Panzoni
00:21:25
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:21:25
Well-made clothes with no labels, but more expensive than my house.
Agustina Panzoni
00:21:30
There was this other trend forecaster on TikTok that called this recession core, which
Audie Cornish
00:21:37
Recession core. We're there.
Audie Cornish
00:21:39
Of course, right? But I think there's something interesting to say in the fact that wealthier individuals are showing up with less jewelry, more muted clothes in the in the red carpets, because during times of difficulty, you don't want to be the person that is showing off. You know, there are people that are saying that flex culture is gone because do you want to be flexing? Do you want to be a Kardashian showing all your worth when people are going through a hard time?
Terry Nguyen
00:22:04
Yeah, I think it's really interesting how there was this. I don't remember. It's like a phrase on TikTok, but it was talking about like quiet luxury or something about how wealth whispers, but like, money talks. I don't think they've truly abandoned that. I think also the aesthetics of chaos is a really funny proposition and a great buzzword. I think it also embodies how there are so many reference points and people are afraid to let go of their clothes and they're making do with a lot of different things that might not really fit into their closet. I just really think this point in time that we're living in, it's really peak remix culture. Like anything really goes, you can walk down the street and photograph like in New York, you can photograph people. Like, I look at those fashion pictures all the time and you're not really sure what era we're in. Our aesthetics are all over the place.
Audie Cornish
00:22:55
Agustina, I think you are – actually the way you look right now, you're – what does it say on your hat?
Terry Nguyen
00:23:01
I love the hat.
Agustina Panzoni
00:23:02
Being in the club too long is wrong.
Audie Cornish
00:23:05
Yeah. And this oversize collared shirt button at the top.
Agustina Panzoni
00:23:10
It's actually two button ups sewn together. So if you look at the back, there's another button up
Audie Cornish
00:23:16
There is another button up, and a kind of blush toned owl eye glasses.
Agustina Panzoni
00:23:23
Mm hmm.
Audie Cornish
00:23:24
And to me, this is a little bit of the now look. A little bit chaotic.
Agustina Panzoni
00:23:30
Yeah
Audie Cornish
00:23:30
A little bit. Is that formal or not formal or deeply informal?
Agustina Panzoni
00:23:35
It's. Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:23:38
It's giving me Gen-z vibes.
Agustina Panzoni
00:23:39
It is giving Gen Z. I'm aware. And as you were saying that, I thought, "Wow, you know, I am really, really doing that." The aesthetics of chaos are, are a little bit in, you know, and, and as we are becoming saturated of this categorization of style, we're seeing more and more people trying to break up those like aesthetics, you know, so that's what I was trying to do here when I dressed this morning just to feel like I have a little bit more agency of what I'm wearing, you know, I don't know if other people feel the same way.
Audie Cornish
00:24:10
Terry, for you, what role do forecasters have? What role do people such as yourselves, right, who are kind of writing about the business of all of this, what role do you have going forward?
Terry Nguyen
00:24:20
For me as sort of a writer and a critic, I think it's really important to contextualize and show that the talk of trends, and sort of the feeling that they're everywhere or the feeling that there's too much trend commentary, I think it's fascinating that kind of a similar thing occurred in the eighties with the rise of MTV and this like new popular video format. TikTok is still a relatively new media format and a way to engage consumers kind of similarly in disruption to MTV. And I think in the mid to late eighties, there was a sort of fervor that there was just so much commentary on aesthetics, and I think we're kind of seeing a similar resurgence right now. So I think this work is really interesting because you're thinking ahead of what's going to happen, but it's important to zoom out and take a big macro look at these things. And for a lot of trends, we simply just don't know until, you know, a year or maybe five years down the line.
Agustina Panzoni
00:25:15
And again, I don't think these are yes, like trends are dead. Maybe we have confused the idea of a trend with trending. Right? Like something might be trending, but it's not a trend. A trend is is a slow movement that affects more than just like the single piece of item, the single clothes that you're trying to wear.It's much bigger than that.
Audie Cornish
00:25:40
By the time this airs, what sleaze, core – I don't know what – trend do you think will have emerged?
Agustina Panzoni
00:25:48
I'm already seeing people talk about business core.
Audie Cornish
00:25:52
Business core
Agustina Panzoni
00:25:53
Yeah. Or corporate core as like, you know, like how in the runway there's a lot of corporate looking outfits happening, you know, a lot of, like, button ups and ties. But again, that's just one outfit, you know, like a button up and a tie. Like, that's –
Audie Cornish
00:26:07
How we dress when we go to the office. That's just like.
Agustina Panzoni
00:26:11
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:26:14
You heard it here first, folks. Business core and maybe even some business sleaze
Agustina Panzoni
00:26:24
Oh, my God.
Audie Cornish
00:26:25
Someone
Agustina Panzoni
00:26:27
Patent that.
Audie Cornish
00:26:27
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:26:31
That was Agustina Panzoni, head of trends for media company Death to Stock. She's also the creator behind @thealgorythm on TikTok. That's algorithm spelled with a Y instead of an I. We also heard from journalist and culture critic Terry Nguyen. She's a senior staff writer at Dirt. Now, you can find links to everything you heard today in the program description. That's it for this episode of The Assignment. And if you have an assignment for us, you can give us a call and leave us a voicemail at 202-854-8802. Or record a voice memo on your phone and you can email that to us at theassignment – all lowercase – at cnn.com. The Assignment is a production of CNN Audio. Our producers are Madeleine Thompson, Jennifer Lai, Lori Galarreta, Carla, Javier and Dan Bloom. Our associate producers are Isoke Samuel and Allison Park. Thanks to Sonia Htoon for help on this week's episode. Our senior producers are Matt Martinez and Haley Thomas. Mixing and Sound Design by David Schulman. Dan Dzula is our technical director. Steve Lickteig is our executive producer. Special thanks to Katie Hinman. I'm Audie Cornish. And thank you for listening.