“I don’t give a flying ‘f’ about the past,” says Lyor Cohen. Google and YouTube’s global head of music is a man of big ideas and brash opinions, both of which are housed behind a totemic pair of glasses that would drain any sense of dignity or authority from your average tech CEO. With a CV that began with his time as a road manager for Run-DMC in the mid-‘80s and quickly escalated to leadership roles at both Def-Jam and Warner Music Group, Cohen’s mythos is that of an industry titan. Jay-Z proclaimed himself to be “the next Lyor” on his 2007 American Gangster album, but such is the New York-born exec’s braggadocious self-image that you suspect this shoutout was taken less as a compliment and more as a shot across the bows.
So what’s he doing in London working for a video streaming service? Nominally, the 63-year-old Cohen is here to speak to GQ about YouTube Music and Premium hitting a combined 80 million subscribers – a milestone he celebrated with a clip of him kicking over some drums. As you might suspect, Cohen claims to be unfussed about a statistic that puts YouTube’s subscriber base roughly on par with Apple Music’s, albeit a long way behind Spotify’s 195 million. He moved to London this year because he vibes with the place in spite of (or perhaps because of) the current chaos that pervades it. “I'm worried that the British people don't actually know how good they got it,” he says. “They threw out the Prime Minister, the Queen died and there was a celebration. People die in these instances.”
Truthfully, Cohen is speaking to us to rep a philosophy: music is broken and short-form video is gonna fix it. Specifically YouTube Shorts, not TikTok or Instagram – platforms he dismisses by making a face like a tranquilised ape as it swipes through its FYP. If this sounds a bit much, then it’s worth remembering that Cohen didn’t attain his current status on brusque charisma alone. From engineering hip-hop’s first endorsement deal for $1 million between Run-DMC and Adidas to the unprecedented 2006 licensing deal he signed for advertising revenue between Warner Music and, you guessed it, YouTube, he’s consistently predicted the direction of travel for his corner of pop culture. Perhaps most revealingly, he still revels in the sound of what’s new. At one point in our chat, he thrusts a freestyle video of London rapper Central Cee in our face and starts rapping along, “You say ‘The feds just done a sweep’, we say ‘The boy dem run in my gaf’. You say ‘On God, no cap’, we say 'Swear on your life, don't gass'.”
All of which is to say that, outlandish as he can be, Cohen is worth taking seriously. He’s got a huge amount of power to dictate the way that music is consumed in 2022, and you can be damn sure he intends on using it. Even if that means jumping in a car all the way to Cornwall to do so…
So when you first took on the job at YouTube you said we’re about to enter a “Golden Age” for the music industry. Do you still believe that?
I'm not convinced that we don't have real problems right now. Artists are about to go on strike, because they didn't read the fine print when they sat at their kitchen table and told their parents, “I'm not going to college. I'm going to be a rock and roll star.” Now they have to worry about subscribers and likes. Another problem is that labels don't know how to break artists. They used to be able to hire teams of people to focus on one day with all the radio stations, magazines and MTV coverage dropping at the same time. Now, it's completely disjointed.
Finally, kids are being hit with the tidal wave of choice and it's unpleasant. You cannot become an adult until you find the soundtrack of your youth. You don't know what partner to hook up with, what clothes to dress in and what crew to run with. It helps curate the direction.
That doesn’t sound like a Golden Age…
It’s a ‘Complicated Age’, but I think short-form video is the solution for it all.
Is it not just giving people something else to be distracted by?
It’s going to simplify everything. Kids now want to participate. When I was a kid, it was OK for me to break of record open, put a needle on, smoke a joint and listen. Now, that doesn't work for them. Short-form video means they can be part of the zeitgeist without, “My life is great and your life sucks.” It’s the new version of rummaging through the crates, but my competition wants them in that ‘dumb stupid mode’.
So who is the competition? TikTok? Instagram?
It’s anybody who is in the short-form video business. The only problem with them is that they don't have the interviews, the live performances or the premium music videos. So their consumption is empty calories, and that's dangerous. I want our short-form video not to be a sugar high, but actually lead them to something more profound: a fandom that’s engaged.
How much YouTube do you watch a day?
I would say I watch 45 minutes randomly throughout the day. That's why the short form product shorts is so good. That if I am on the go, in line or have a short window, I will go to the shorts feed. And if I'm trying to learn something or drill deeper or have more time, I will go to the main part of of YouTube.
You've been around the music industry for essentially your whole life. When were you first aware of the internet's impact on music?
I sold Def-Jam in 1999, the first month that CD sales started declining. That was dumb luck, but I knew it was Napster because the kids were going apeshit. Suddenly, the iconic Tower Records on Sunset Boulevard was no longer there. I didn't feel panic, because if you follow the kids, they will be a beacon. I’ve played offence my whole life – I get really uncomfortable when things are nice and easy.
Some would say you’ve got an easy job at YouTube now. You’ve got a huge amount of money and talent behind you. Do you still feel challenged?
Extremely challenged. When I started at the company YouTube was considered to be the enemy. That wasn't daunting to me, because I knew that to have multiple distribution channels for artists and their music is a net positive thing. And the fact is that in the last 12 months we’ve paid $6 billion to the music industry. That only means more artists get signed, more artist development and more videos get made.
So what's challenging about your job?
What’s challenging when you’re getting darts thrown at you all day, and you’re trying to dodge them, change the narrative and build a subscription service all at once? So there’s a twin-engine growth story where advertising and subscription live side by side?
I pay a lot of tolls at the company. There are a lot of checks and balances, and there’s a lot of effort to cheerlead and convince an advocate for the industry that I love so much. Now, a lot of people say, “Why are you going through that?” And I say, in order to play with over two billion daily active users, you have to pay some sort of toll. If you don't want to do that, go to a startup that has 2,000 daily active users.
How is it different to what you did before?
I used to sign and find talent. It’s a whole different set of experiences.
But you’re talking about people skills and convincing talent. There is some crossover there…
Listen, I'm rare at the company. Traditional media people don't actually survive that well at big tech. I have helped move this rock forward. The effect that I have, is going to affect a lot of artists, a lot of songwriters, publishers and record companies. Most of the world's music goes through our platform – it's a huge responsibility. The explosion in Latin music and watching Korean artists take it to a whole other level means a lot to me.
So they’re a good example of cutting through the clutter?
I remember seeing Blackpink on the fourth stage of Coachella, and now they could dominate the main stage. We might feel like it's a long time coming, but it's just part of the process.
There are a lot of metrics attached to your job. You just mentioned the $6 billion paid out to artists this year, and it was recently announced that Youtube Music and Premium have a combined 80 million subscribers. How hung up do you get up on those numbers?
I don't get hung up on the numbers, because there are a lot of people at the company that do that for you. I'm floating in the veins of the industry, I speak to enormous amounts of artists all over the world. I speak to almost every record company. I'm understanding what's happening in culture, the stress points and trying to solve them. The numbers are important, but they’re directional.
You’ve got to listen to a lot of music. How do you avoid getting stuck in your taste?
So when I started in my career, I had no money, I had no clout, no experience and I got high. Any one of those four things would have prevented someone from building a business. And yet rap music started in New York, 40 blocks away from the most powerful record companies in the world – the centre of the music industry in the early ‘80s.
It was the arrogance of those in charge who didn’t get out in their own backyard that left the most powerful impression on me. Because fast forward five years, then suddenly I had money. I had some clout, I stopped getting high and I was building a business. So if you told me that there was some Cornwall music scene that’s bubbling under, with people dancing sideways and singing on one foot. You know what I do? Get in the fucking car and experience it.
How do you bring that ethos to YouTube, given a big part of the YouTube algorithm is designed to give you more of what you like?
The facts prove that short investment in watch time for delighting and surprising is healthier for the platform in the long run. So when I ran into a record store, making a beeline to buy A Tribe Called Quest the salesman saw me and said, “I know you came in for A Tribe… but take my word for it, this De La Sol record is really good. Can you please buy it?” That night what splattered my brains all over the ceiling wasn't A Tribe Called Quest. Being surprised and blown away by music is sticky and powerful.
This conversation was edited for brevity and clarity.
